Tuesday, May 13, 2008

My quest for the "reasonable" KMT...

(Photo: "Long Live the King" is a common sight here in Thailand)

I've been thinking about a recent email conversation with another Taiwan blogger. I have not asked the author's permission to publish these emails, so (s)he shall remain anonymous.

The original email conversation started over my recent posts looking at views being promulgated at The China Desk. My interlocutor (who has emailed me often with helpful information and details, who knows that I don't always agree with him, and who respects that) warned me not to expect any substantial dialogue with an "anti-democracy, pro-free-market-anarcho-capitalist authoritarian." Did I mention that said person doesn't mince words?

I responded:
I did know he's about as blue as they come, and I've read his site for some time. This past week, though, was the first time I actually got around to writing about something he wrote.

I would like to get a better understanding of what some blue-leaning people think about the state of Taiwan, but I haven't been able to find much in the line of reasonable stuff. I (and we may disagree on this) believe that some blues are reasonable people with strong and valid reasons for their political positions, and I'd like to understand that better. The China Desk, though, certainly isn't the place to find it.
The subsequent response brought a challenge: give an example of what I would call a "reasonable" blue supporter.

That got me. The truth is, and I have commented on Chu's site to this effect as well, most of what I have found is exactly what I've been told I would find: KMT apologetes who don't seem willing to accept the wrongs of their forbearers, while all too readily accepting even the most minor faults of the DPP.

I thought for some time about this before replying:
Perhaps what I mean is that, yes, a lot of blues are exactly that (people operating on what are false precepts, just as many greens probably have exaggerated impressions of blues -- e.g. that they are all responsible for the ills of the KMT -- but the way some people will attack a blue with vitriol, I feel, only makes them cling more to their beliefs [and vice versa]. I often get the impression in Taiwanese and American politics that the idea of us all being in this together has been totally lost. For my part, though, I'm going to try [to] keep my calm and present my counter arguments the best I can.

So, I guess what I was trying to say is that I've been looking to better understand why the blues believe what they do and how that can change. It comes from being a pretty liberal-leaning person in one of the reddest states in the US. Just because these people...lean towards a politician I find to be despicable, I don't villainize them, nor even the politician for that matter. All I can do is learn how best to make my case and hope people will see where I'm coming from. The hardest part is accepting that some people just won't change or don't care. Yelling and sermonizing doesn't change that.

So, that's what I've been trying to do. I've been trying to learn what makes blues tick. I'm not talking about the evil ones who are responsible for all those horrible things, but the ones who support those evil ones. What makes the voters look past their politicians' faults?

Moreover, just because I can't give you an example of a good or reasonable blue, doesn't mean they don't exist. I admittedly know very few blues.
Looking back at the email, I want to be clear that the first word of the first sentence is "perhaps." I make this note, because I have, for several months now, been asking myself if Ma's election was actually the best outcome, and I don't think I'm operating on false precepts. I am too tired and busy to go into it now in great detail (I'm in Bangkok right now), but I will try to outline it as best I can.

I've written extensively of my views on the DPP's failings, the fact that their objectives (Democracy, Justice, Progress, etc.) demand a higher standard, which they have not lived up to. Of course, that doesn't mean that the argument cannot be made that the DPP, since its inception, has conducted itself much better than they KMT. The point is, rather, that the Taiwanese don't necessarily hold the KMT to the lofty goals they once did the DPP, so corruption and lies from the KMT don't weaken the KMT as much as even one rotten DPP politician. Therefore, the fact that the DPP has not proved to be above the sort of vice and ineptitude that Taiwanese are used to from the KMT, one could make the case, undermines the entire party.

Remember the bacon debate? Well, I'd just as soon let sleeping dogs do what they do best, but, in the months that have passed, I have not stopped thinking of that debate. I can't stop thinking that what the Taiwanese did was just what people in every other country do when they've lost faith in their politicians: they vote for the party that will get them the best incentives. That's what it's about after all, isn't it? Incentives. The KMT may have torn up the infrastructure the Japanese built up over the fifty years they occupied Taiwan, but will the KMT be the party to build it up again? They likely have the power, connections, and, yes, bacon to get it done.

If you lose faith in the DPP's moral high ground, ability to improve Taiwan, and capacity to move Taiwan into a new era of prosperity, then you vote for the party that has the money, the structure, and the connections to do it (rightly or wrongly, justly or injustly). The world is full of people (in Iraq, Russia, etc.) looking nostalgically backwards to the authoritarian rulers who limited their freedoms but, at least, provided them with stability, e.g. a steady job. A prominent international criminal law/human rights professor mentioned to me yesterday a scene from the BBC documentary "No More Mandelas" (which I have not yet watched) where a black man in Soweto looked back at the Apartheid and the Nationalist Party asking, were we better off? Blacks were an oppressed majority then, but, at least, they could put food on the table.

The conversation about this documentary took place at the seminar on Transitional Justice that I'm participating in in Bangkok right now. It's striking how often, during the course of the presentations and discussions, I come back to the importance of cooperation, which I realized in the email conversation above was what I was getting at. I don't think the DPP has much of a chance for survival if it doesn't try to maintain the moral high ground, and that has to do largely with whether or not they can bridge the gap between themselves and the KMT. I'm starting to believe more and more that Taiwan has two governments, and many people choose which of those two governments they wish to follow and largely disregard the other. Someone needs to bring about the idea that everyone on that island is "in it" together. Villainization and debasement of the "other side" serves very little purpose as does a salvo of personal attacks.

I'm not saying, either, that I've never taken part in this myself. It's quite easy to do, but, more and more, I'm starting to learn that there are better ways to move forward.

...and I'm still looking to have an enlightening conversation with some blues, as I do believe that there are intelligent people on both sides of the divide.

22 comments:

Mark said...

Considering that both the legislative and presidential elections went to the blues in a landslide, it shouldn't be hard to find somebody reasonable who supported them. Barring, of course, the possibility that most Taiwanese people are unreasonable...

Robert said...

Yeah, Mark. That's a valid point. I actually forgot to note that part of the inability on my part to learn more about this comes from my level of Chinese. So my access, still, is limited.

阿牛 said...

I talked to plenty of reasonable blue people about the election. They simply had different priorities. They could vote for the KMT in hopes of punishing the DPP, improving the state of the economy or "calming things with China" without demanding an apology for all the bad things the party has done.

David said...

The English-language blogosphere presents a very one sided view of Taiwanese politics for sure. If there were a well-written pro-KMT blog with insightful analysis I would love to read it. Of course there are people with intelligence and insight on the KMT side but it seems none of them are interested in writing blogs.

Michael Turton said...

I've been searching for three years for reasoned Blue commentary. I don't think it is possible to have reasoned Blue commentary -- and I think it is important to distinguish between reasonable people and reasoned commentary. The first is common.....

Part of the issue I think is that the KMT positions are essentially quasireligious positions and are not defensible unless you accept their core values, any more than the positions that underlie the Catholic Church or Red Hat Buddhism are reasonable and capable of defense. You can believe Jesus rose from the dead, but that belief is not amenable to reasoned defense. At most, such positions can only be believed or disbelieved. Beyond that, when analyzing politics or economics or cross-strait issues, I think KMTers can do as well as anyone, but the moment they cross into those core areas, the quality drops astronomically. And there is much intermingling of the two positions -- you only have to read the "staff" stuff or the editorials or the pro-KMT commentators in The China Post.

As we enter our 60th year of KMT control of the legislature, frankly I think the answer to why people voted in what way lies beyond reason and unreason.

Michael

Robert said...

A-gu (or any of the other commenters), I'm wondering if any of those blue voters care about the fact that the KMT has never been in the minority in the LY?

That, I think, has been a frustrating truth for even the most disillusioned DPP supporters.

Anonymous said...

Your view of "Blue" supporters as being "KMT apologetes who don't seem willing to accept the wrongs of their forbearers, while all too readily accepting even the most minor faults of the DPP" may be the view of the few "Blue" English language bloggers, but in my experience as a native Taiwanese born and raised on this island, I believe your observation is inaccurate.

In my experience, most "Blue" supporters are genuinely appreciative that the DPP helped to bring democracy to Taiwan. With the exception of a very small minority, most Taiwanese, "Blue" or "Green", were glad to see the end of martial law. What the DPP did after it got into power though, leaves a lot to be desired. Just like almost all Zimbabweans appreciate ZANU-PF and Robert Mugabe bringing democracy to Zimbabwe, many Zimbabweans do not like Robert Mugabe's performance after he became president. It's not that we had unrealistic expectations of the DPP, it is that over the years the DPP abandoned its original progressive democratic ideals and became focused solely on keeping itself in power. As you know, the harshest critics of the DPP are several founding DPP members who are disillusioned with what the DPP has become. Most American bloggers in Taiwan dismiss these people as traitors, but I urge you to research the DPP's history and be your own judge.
As to why so many Taiwanese support the "Blues", the answer is pretty simple. Most Taiwanese could care less whether they live in the ROC, ROT, or PRC so long as they have a safe, content, prosperous life for themselves and their children. We're not unreasonable, just practical.

Arty said...

DPP may have a "D" word in its name. However, personally I don't think DPP preaches democracy because it does not even know what "democracy" means. DPP in reality is preaching popularism which is often confused with democracy. And since every populist movements end up having a new government worse than the old. DPP is no exception.

Btw, maybe the reason that you don't find any reasonable commons is because you don't want to see it. For example, I find Michael T.'s commons are very reasonable from his point of view. However, is it right or even correct? "Opinions are like Aholes, everyone has one!"

A-gu (or any of the other commenters), I'm wondering if any of those blue voters care about the fact that the KMT has never been in the minority in the LY?

Maybe we are smart enough knowing that LY in Taiwan doesn't even have subpoena power nor able to earmark funding for a particular project. The president's initiative is an absolute necessity.

Michael Turton said...

A-gu (or any of the other commenters), I'm wondering if any of those blue voters care about the fact that the KMT has never been in the minority in the LY?

That, I think, has been a frustrating truth for even the most disillusioned DPP supporters.


What does this comment mean, Robert?

Maybe we are smart enough knowing that LY in Taiwan doesn't even have subpoena power

Why do you keep repeating this, Arty?

Michael

Michael Turton said...

As you know, the harshest critics of the DPP are several founding DPP members who are disillusioned with what the DPP has become. Most American bloggers in Taiwan dismiss these people as traitors,

I can't even think of a single blogger who does, let alone "most"

Michael

Anonymous said...


Btw, maybe the reason that you don't find any reasonable commons is because you don't want to see it.


So point it out!

Robert said...

Anon said:

"Your view of "Blue" supporters as being "KMT apologetes who don't seem willing to accept the wrongs of their forbearers, while all too readily accepting even the most minor faults of the DPP" may be the view of the few "Blue" English language bloggers, but in my experience as a native Taiwanese born and raised on this island, I believe your observation is inaccurate."

I did not say that is what Blue supporters are. Please read the sentence I wrote carefully. I said most of what I've found in the way of discussion from the KMT side. I did not say that's what KMT supporters were, and indeed the very purpose of this article was to express the belief that that's not what all KMT supporters are.

As to "American" bloggers (we're certainly not all Americans) calling former DPP members traitors, all I can say is that I never have and don't recall ever reading such remarks. It's certainly not widespread.

Anon said:

"As to why so many Taiwanese support the "Blues", the answer is pretty simple. Most Taiwanese could care less whether they live in the ROC, ROT, or PRC so long as they have a safe, content, prosperous life for themselves and their children. We're not unreasonable, just practical."

I've made a similar case on this site several times. I don't particularly disagree with you, yet why don't the Taiwanese hold the KMT majority in the Legislature responsible for the bills they block and boycott? I'm happy that Taiwanese people are practical. I want piece, and I don't think China is the source of all evil in the world. Yet, why does the KMT get a free pass on for their part in government misconduct in recent years?

Finally, Michael, the comment about LY is trying to get at the fact that KMT's part in blocking/boycotting legislation over the years doesn't seem to be an issue to KMT supporters. While many DPP supporters have become disillusioned with certain aspects of their party, the fact that the KMT has done this is a thorn in their side. What do KMT supporters feel about this? Do they know? DO they care? Is it just part of the game?

Michael Turton said...

I totally agree, Robert. If the KMT/Blue's dismal performance in the LY directly impacts the locals standard of living, which it certainly did, why did they vote it back in, and keep voting it back in, in three elections during the Chen Administration? And if voters believe the KMT is the party to deliver on the economic promises, why is the DPP legislative vote rising over time, and the KMT vote stagnant or falling at the legislative level, especially relative to population growth? I think the psychology of voters in Taiwan is interesting, but the psychology of explainers is utterly fascinating. A whole population of talking heads who never once look at numbers....

Linda Arrigo told me once she arranged a symposium for German politicians to come and discuss with the then-incoming DPP administration about the fact that while the public expects corruption of the old authoritarian party, they hold it far more against the incoming reform party if it turns out to be even a little corrupt. Apparently the DPP never got that lesson. In the early 1990s, when I was working in DC for one of the independence orgs, that was the impression I developed then. The DPP is like an abused child, replicating the abuses it experienced growing up.

Guess we'll have to see what Ma brings us...

Michael

Mark said...

With no offense intended to anyone who blogs, the whole idea of going to blogs as the place to find "reasonable" arguments in blinkered.

"Reasonable" isn't where blogs excel. Muck-racking, mud-slinging, pompous quasi-academic posturing, pictures of kittens, and vast, sweeping conspiracy theories are where blogs excel. Of course they're also a wonderful place for personal journals and keeping track of friends, too. I'm not saying they're all bad, obviously. Heck, I write one myself. It's just that blogs, particularly political blogs , are the last place on earth I'd look for measured reason.

Michael Turton said...

Heck, I write one myself. It's just that blogs, particularly political blogs , are the last place on earth I'd look for measured reason.

Well, if they are the last place on earth you'd look, you're obviously not very well informed -- nor very polite on a thread with several political bloggers. I can think of dozens of political blogs in the several countries that I follow such things that are plenty reasonable.

Michael

Arty said...

Maybe we are smart enough knowing that LY in Taiwan doesn't even have subpoena power

Why do you keep repeating this, Arty?


Because people keep saying it is all LY's fault. Just like the Republican in the US keeps blaming the Democrat controlled house during the Regan and the Bush Sr. administration. When Clinton became the President, all the sudden is the President's fault and not the Republican controlled house (If you look at 90's budget, you will realize most of the time the President's bills are block by the house. Yet, we have a very good time in the 90s in the US. Why?) Btw, I only bring it up when someone trying to blame LY while LY in Taiwan are relative powerless in comparison to the US one.

Mark said...

Michael, I specifically said I didn't mean any offense to anyone who blogs, just as I'm sure you and David didn't mean to imply that a certain mutual friend of ours who is blue leaning and blogs is "unreasonable" or lacks "intelligence and insight".

It's just that different mediums have different strengths. Blogs are very good for making a lot of information accessible to a lot of people very quickly. I do appreciate that. However, blogs are still prone to the problems I listed above. In addition, blogs tend to suffer from myopia. Everyone tends to read and link to what they already agree with, and in the long-term, this tends to entrench existing beliefs. After a while, it becomes difficult for some to understand how anybody could be on "the other side".

This may be a large part of the why blogs are often plagued by comment-wars, muck-raking, mud-slinging, pompous quasi-academic posturing, and vast conspiracy theories.

Michael Turton said...

Btw, I only bring it up when someone trying to blame LY while LY in Taiwan are relative powerless in comparison to the US one.

LOL. The issue isn't whether the LY is powerful in comparison to the US but whether it is powerful in comparison to the executive and other branches of the Taiwan government. The LY may not have subpeona power, but it still controls the purse strings, and budget slashing during the last eight years has badly hampered the ability of the government to govern. As it was intended.

On the other hand, it has meant lower inflation and lower government debt. I'm curious to see what happens when there's no oversight of the purse strings anymore.

Michael

Michael Turton said...

So it seems, after 18 comments, that we're back where we were -- where do we go to find intelligent commentary from a Blue standpoint? I've tried KNN. Uh...don't think so.

Blogs always bring up "why" questions for me -- why some and not others? There are plenty of people who blog on politics and restaurants and photo blogs in English, but no art or culture blogs, in Taiwan. No credentialed academic in Taiwan blogs openly under his own name except Mark Harrison (several blog under fake names) -- but in many other fields there are exceptional blogs from qualified experts, NT studies, Biology, archaeology, to name some of my interests. The missionary blogs are dull to the point of madness, except for Scott Pagel's blog. Why are things this way and not some other way?

Michael

Michael

Mark said...

My advice for someone who believes X, but wants to hear a reasonable defense of Y is to become friends with a person who believes Y. In time, you'll learn more and more reasons why the person supports why, and when you do discuss the topic you'll both have more of an incentive to be reasonable than semi-anonymous people on the internet would.

As for the second part, I suspect the more objective a field, the more likely you'll find good online discussion. On my own blog, I've found the comments on programming and mathematics-based pieces for more productive than the responses on other topics.

Arty said...

The LY may not have subpeona power, but it still controls the purse strings, and budget slashing during the last eight years has badly hampered the ability of the government to govern. As it was intended.

Well, so Michael have you look at Taiwan government expenditures from the official ROC National Statistics. Care to enlighten me how the budget was cut according to you.

Here is the link:

http://tinyurl.com/4md6ah

The overall budget of Taiwan government look very good staying at around 75% of expenditures/revenues. Btw, even the defense budget is increased by a bit just for the 5 year that we can see here. I do find it interesting that the government seen to empty the current account every year after DPP took over...

Robert said...

Mark, I've tried exactly that. Well, actually, I haven't gone out and looked for KMT supporters, but I've tried to talk to a lot of Taiwanese people (mostly my age) about politics. I always get one of two responses: disinterest or agreement. I've yet to meet anyone who readily talks about his support for the KMT...

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