Sunday

Sunday, July 29, 2007

Learning that there is no Mainland, or, The Greening of the Redhead

NOTE [Aug. 2008]: While I do still agree with many of the thoughts and frustrations expressed in this post, my positions are far more nuanced and, in some cases, different from those presented here. I am leaving it up in the "Posts of Note" section because it marks a turning point in my studies of Taiwan and its relationship with both the US and the PRC as well as my understanding of how the international media addresses Taiwan.

I've been putting this post off for a long time. It's been several months in the making, and I've been waiting for a day where I've several hours to lay my thoughts out in a clear, comprehensive manner, gather citations, and make it all look real purdy.

I've been waiting for someone to offer me a bag full of money so that I can stop working and devote myself to learning Mandarin and Taiwanese as well as Taiwanese history.

Suffice it to say that it hasn’t happened yet, and, otherwise, my life hasn't afforded me such an occasion in quite some time. So I’m just going to let the cards fall where they lay. Thus, this post has been written over little bits of free time during the last week.

Here goes...

Someone recently mentioned that I had become noticeably "greener" in my posting. I thought that was a reference to my disdain for the state of the environment ― especially the air I have to breathe every day ― here in Taiwan . Then, I realized my interlocutor was referencing my political sentiments regarding my new home. The “green” he was talking about was of the “pan-green coalition” shade.

Let me step back a little bit. I remember, when I used to live in Paris ― hell, even back when I was still at university in the States, and I first started reading blogs ― it irked me to read stuff by guys like Michael Turton at The View from Taiwan and Tim Maddog at It’s not a Democracy, It’s a Conspiracy. It seemed like these guys could read the back of a cereal box and find evidence of someone kowtowing to Beijing .

This sentiment actually lasted until recently. I remember reading Mr. Turton’s comments on How the World Works about how Taiwan is not Chinese. It seemed relatively clear to me that the article and the book it was referencing likely weren’t claiming that Taiwan was stuck in some anachronistic, Colonial Williamsburg type realm where cultures don’t evolve and where the word “Chinese” has some precise, all-encompassing denotation that can be dissected and, thus, analyzed objectively (I didn't know that the idea of Taiwan preserving Taiwanese culture was KMT propaganda). Turton ended up mentioning that the book was actually a good read and that the author had just chosen an over-simplified (attention-grabbing) title.

To be clear, I never thought the likes of the aforementioned two have been out of line. If I may reference The Big Lebowski in all it’s glory (let us bow our heads), “Walter, does everything have to be about Vietnam ?”

Does every little word of every article have to be nitpicked? Must every mention of Taiwan be scoured for evidence of Beijing ’s spin machine?

It took me a long time to realize that, yes, as tedious as it is, someone needs to be pointing these things out, no matter how minute or mundane.

My change of heart revolves around one crucial realization that I had as a result of being incensed by Taiwan ’s most recent rejection from the World Health Organization. Not only is denying a country of 23 million people representation and protection an insanely hazardous move by an organization whose charge it is to improve and protect the health of, um, more or less the entire human race (aside from the Taiwanese people, that is), it’s a dismaying display of the truism that politics trumps reason. It’s no secret that China blocked Taiwan ’s entry, even though the political lines we imagine around the world will bear little importance when a viral infection is allowed to fester in a country that is larger than seventy five percent of the countries in the UN. In his great book In Our Own Best Interest: How Defending Human Rights Benefit Us All, William Schulz ― (former?) Executive Director of Amnesty International ― devotes a whole chapter to disease and how allowing it to thrive abroad means risking contracting it at home.

Short of shutting down the worldwide tourist industry, cutting off international business travel, and closing down U.S. borders completely, letting no living soul in or out of the country, we must face the fact that human-borne disease is capable of spreading around the world with remarkable rapidity, carried by anyone, be it rich or refugee. In 1991 an Aerolineas Argentinas flight made a scheduled stop in Lima , Peru , picked up a load of passengers, and efficiently delivered cholera to Los Angeles .

Of course, it’s not just people who transmit disease.

A 1985 outbreak of dengue fever in Texas , for example, has been attributed to the arrival of a particularly aggressive mosquito species in a shipment of waterlogged used tires sent to Houston , Texas , from Japan for retreading.

This all means that, quoting from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC)

the health of the American people [and the rest of the world] is inextricably linked to the health of people in other nations; infectious diseases can and do spread rapidly around the globe” and to warn that “once considered ‘exotic,’ tropical infectious diseases are having an increasing effect on the American public.

But, I digress. Somewhere lost in the flurry of articles that were published on the subject, I decided it was time for me to finally construct a more cohesive understanding of Taiwanese history, to truly understand from whence these disputes are born.

Before coming to Taiwan , I knew that it was more or less a universally accepted truth that Chiang-Kai Shek was a despotic ruler. I knew that many people in Taiwan were of Chinese decent and that many of them had come due to the KMT’s defeat by the Mao’s Red Army. I also knew that the "Chinese" killed thousands of people, aborigines and other immigrants.

I knew numerous bits and pieces, but I needed some context.

The most important revelation I had somewhere in the haze of articles and books was that, I’ll be damned, there is no Mainland China. Rather there is China , and there is Taiwan .

Everything I had learned about Taiwan previously was under the premise that there was “One China” that some in Taiwan wanted to be independent from. I remember sitting at a birthday party in a tiny apartment in Paris . There were seven Chinese students, three Taiwanese, and one American (me) at the table. Some of these Chinese students lived one floor above a good Taiwanese friend of ours and had invited us that night to share in a special birthday “hot pot” (火鍋). Before laying out all the fixins’, one of the Chinese occupants brought a stack of old issues of the Financial Times to cover the table to protect it from all the sloshing and dripping involved in eating a hot pot. As the conversation went on around me in Chinese, with rare interludes in English, I zoned out, philosophizing about conflict and difference. I was wondering how the countries from which these people came from could have so many weapons of mass destruction pointed at each other, yet still get along so well together.

This is something that I think about nearly constantly when I’m abroad. But it was more poignant this time, because I noticed one of the articles being stained by the juices bubbling from the pot in the middle of the table was titled “ Taiwan stocks fall as Chen vows tough China stance.”

There is hope, I said to myself, watching my Chinese and Taiwanese friends chatting away. I had said the same thing the year before in Angers , France ― where Fanfan and I met studying French ― watching Chinese and Taiwanese students talking and laughing together.

In reality ― as is generally the case ― it’s much more complicated. I still have no doubt that China and Taiwan could some day have normal diplomatic relations with each other and that there is no reason the people from these two countries can’t get along. The difference in my beliefs is, now, I don’t believe that China and Taiwan are or should ever be the same country, and I’m mad as hell the more I learn of the injustices Taiwan suffers as a result of what amounts to its place in a historical netherworld (being passed off by one Chinese government -- that later fell -- to the Japanese, being handed back to one of two feuding sides of a Chinese civil war at the end of WWII, and so on).

Topping the list of offenses against Taiwan is the fact that a developed nation that democratically elects its officials and upholds human rights is cast aside, spurned, and belittled politically by the international community, though nary a country refuse to do business with it . In every facet, Taiwan is an independent, functioning nation. It’s passports are recognized by every nation I know of, it’s money is exchanged around the world, its government officials are regarded as legitimate, yet it is repeatedly denied its rightful place in world bodies like the United Nations and the World Health Organization. All for fear of itching the hair trigger of a temperamental colossus with a penchant for oppression and violence. It is disgusting that Taiwan is snubbed as means for other nations to suck up to an authoritarian, corrupt government with a terrible record on human rights and a Stalinist fear of dissent.

To be clear about my comments on “Greeness,” the DPP isn't perfect. Far from it, I know. But the KMT seems utterly opposed to the idea of accepting responsibility for what it did in the past. When it comes time for the KMT to face up to the allegations posed when people are free to question their government, these guys seem to just whine about the DPP playing the ethnic card, then duck and run.

In any case, there it is. I’m hooked. Aside from doing my best to learn Chinese, I’ve started reading as much as I can about Taiwanese history. I’ve picked up two of Jerome Keating's books, and I’m open to more suggestions. I’m going to pick up Formosa Betrayed (for which a movie seems to be in the works) when I finish Keating's The Struggles of Democracy.

I’ve also decided that if at all possible I would like to study Taiwanese history and culture when Fanfan and I return from a four month stint in the states next April. I’m going to be looking for scholarships, and any help I can get will be greatly appreciated. Until I started reading up, I didn't realize that there is still so much that is unknown, left to be researched concerning the last century of Taiwan's history. My plan has always been to go back to the states and work on a doctorate in cultural and social anthropology, and not only would having this sort of cultural specialization under my belt in Taiwan look good on a resumé, but also getting a degree over here may help me prepare myself mentally for going back to school in the states.

This past weekend, I was able to go to the first half of the seminar on Transitional Justice. What disappointment I had in my lack of comprehension (the first hour and half or so was in German and Chinese), I made up for tenfold thanks to David Reid introducing me to the likes of Linda Gail Arrigo and the aforementioned Dr. Keating. Everyone was so welcoming to me in the short time we had during the coffee break, and I was almost heartbroken when I had to leave without being able to speak more in depth with some of these people. But even in those short moments, everyone made me feel so welcomed, and they all seemed enthusiastic about offering me advice.

On that note, I’d like to thank all of you who have helped me so far in trying to understand this place, through your comments, phone conversations, and emails. I can’t tell you how much it’s helped me.

And to any of you out there who disagree with anything I’ve put forth or anything I write in the future, please contact me ― through the comments or by email. I welcome criticism almost more than I do praise, because, after all it’s that from which I learn. I've had occasional commentary from Pan-blue supporters, yet they are never willing to offer materials to me that I may understand their point of view.

Finally, I figured I’d lay out some questions that are on my mind, to give y’all an idea of where I want to go from here, since, I presume, quite a few of you may be able to help me find some good material:

Who in the US is working to change American policy vis-à-vis Taiwan ? This could mean organizations as well as politicians in the states, of which it seems there are more and more.
Would the US ’s recognition of Taiwan mean an inevitable military conflict with China ? Does China not have a lot to lose if it were to attack Taiwan ? Do they care?
What is being done to curb corruption in Taiwanese politics? From what I’ve been reading, this is why a lot of Taiwanese become disillusioned with the idea of democracy (so I read) because they feel that things have gotten bogged down by the corrupt politicians that they elected.
What is the “status quo” as defined by China , Taiwan , and the US ?
Why exactly did the world go from recognizing the KMT government in Taiwan as the legitimate Chinese government to switching official recognition to Beijing ?
When will mopeds be outlawed? When will police start pulling people for running red lights and almost hitting me when I get off the bus?
Does the DPP have any plans for legislation concerning the banality of Hello Kitty and how it’s every Taiwanese citizen’s duty to resist such insipid appeals to their neurological cutesy-pootsy reflex? (as I’ve already mentioned Pankun and James is acceptable)

20 comments:

Michael Turton said...: Wow. Heavy post. I must seem weird to people who haven't been here and don't know the discourse. It's only after you start reading from a Taiwan-centered POV that things suddenly become clear.

# Who in the US is working to change American policy vis-à-vis Taiwan? This could mean organizations as well as politicians in the states, of which it seems there are more and more.

FAPA. Some US conservatives. NATPA. NATWA.

# Would the US’s recognition of Taiwan mean an inevitable military conflict with China? Does China not have a lot to lose if it were to attack Taiwan? Do they care?

I'd answer, yes, yes, and yes.

# What is being done to curb corruption in Taiwanese politics? From what I’ve been reading, this is why a lot of Taiwanese become disillusioned with the idea of democracy (so I read) because they feel that things have gotten bogged down by the corrupt politicians that they elected.

LOL. CW says Taiwanese don't like corrupt politicians. Reality is that they vote for them in droves.

# What is the “status quo” as defined by China, Taiwan, and the US?

Good luck. It's a mystery to me too.

# Why exactly did the world go from recognizing the KMT government in Taiwan as the legitimate Chinese government to switching official recognition to Beijing?

Probably the double whammy of UN entry for the PRC and the Shanghai Communique.

# When will mopeds be outlawed? When will police start pulling people for running red lights and almost hitting me when I get off the bus?

I saw a flying pig the other day. Maybe it's time...

# Does the DPP have any plans for legislation concerning the banality of Hello Kitty and how it’s every Taiwanese citizen’s duty to resist such insipid appeals to their neurological cutesy-pootsy reflex? (as I’ve already mentioned Pankun and James is acceptable)

I read the forbidden two words, H____ K____, and my brain just shorted right out.

Michael; 7:13 AM
Robo said...: I am truly sorry for offending your sensibilities when it comes to H_____ K______.

I'll try not to let it slip out again.; 7:40 AM
ken said...: I am a Taiwanese. My family moved to Taiwan in early 19th centry. The family has gone through Ching, Japanese, KMT and now DPP.I think Han people after being ruled by Ching for 268 years carry some strange personality and behavior characteristics. Briefly , Hanging a goat's head and selling dog' meat. Japanese governor knew, Kissinger knew , politicians in China and now Taiwan , Know . The poor in China is the same as the poor before revolution yet the nation label itself people's...Those people in the administrative system enjoy just like Machu people in Ching enslave Han. Same here in Taiwan during CKS rule and now is in trasition or evolution. DPP also gradually ges this dirty stain.
What Taiwanese really hope is a efficient administration and justice. Only then can Taiwan show its strength and persistence in pursuing its duely right as a member of world nation club. Independence or unification is not a true issue. What should be removed is the bad chinese political tradition.
Ken; 4:39 PM
David said...: Very thoughtful post.; 3:47 PM
E. Buki said...: The answer to all your questions lie in the name zhong guo. As the central country China acts imperially as regards any bit of land. I know Chinese people who say that a Chinese king conquored part of Europe. That this king was Mongolia not Chinese makes no sense to him because Mongolia is part of China.

When Taipei cannot withstand the authority of Beijing they will cease to be an independent country just as many countries lost their independence to the Chinese empire (Miao, Naxi, Bai, Tibet, Mongolia...). What the great tragedy in that is, I can't tell. Personally, I prefer that if nations are to lose local authority they should be to the United States. One way or the other, Taiwan will lose independence. Will it be to China or the US? Since I am an American and I value civil liberties (much more so then national self-rule) I prefer that Taiwan not fall to the PRC.

As a country at war to bring Western-style liberties to Iraq, I find it odd that we let Taiwan dangle as it does. But, that’s how realpolitik works.; 12:31 AM
Robo said...: I've several articles about America's claim over Taiwan, even senators suggesting that Taiwanese people be issued American passports, but that doesn't make me believe that Taiwan has to lose it's independence to one or the other.

I don't see the necessity in the United States having sovereignty over Taiwan. It's distant, culturally quite different, and already has a functioning government of its own.

Sure, if I had to choose between the two -- the PRC and the US -- I'd choose the latter, but I don't see why that has to be the only choice.

As for Iraq, we didn't go there to bring them democracy. That's a fact. We went there to find WMD's that didn't exist. Democracy was an afterthought, at least as far as the reasons they gave to the American people as to why we were going to send troops there. I know Wolfowitz has long had his dream of setting up a "Beacon of democracy" in the Middle East that would lean towards Israel.

They told us that this war was about WMDs. We would have never gone if they said they were going to bring democracy to Iraq. Not because we don't care about other countries being democratic, but because, well, there are plenty of other countries that are more hopeless dictatorships than Iraq was.

This is coming from someone who voted for Bush (once) and supported going into Iraq based on the reasons given.

Democracy isn't "Western" either. It's been seen in many different societies (even Muslim ones) around the world at different times, long before it ever arrived in Europe.; 2:14 AM
Irwin said...: "There is no mainland"... how true is that?

I got all worked up yesterday because I heard a story on NPR about MLB expanding into "mainland" China. As if there is a "off shore" China.

The use of that phase perfectly sums on the problem with Taiwan. Everyone knows it is not China so why repeat the lies?; 11:51 AM
Jimmy said...: "I didn't know that the idea of Taiwan preserving Taiwanese culture was KMT propaganda"

I think you meant: "I didn't know that the idae of Taiwan preserving Chinese culture was KMT propaganda"; 7:24 PM
Mike said...: Hmmm, this is coming over half a year too late but I thought I'd pitch in my two cents as well. I've been perusing your writings lately, among a host of other China/Taiwan 中华-related blogs out there. It's been very interesting to get to read so many different perspectives on various issues concerning the Chinese language sphere...

I'll spare you all the gory details, but I am a mainland-born, U.S.-raised college grad who considers himself socially conscientious. I have myriad reasons for a sudden surge of interest in East Asia, not the least of which is potential graduate study in my near future.

I apologize for how long-winded this is but this is in fact the first comment I've made on any such blog. I guess I felt the need for some self explanation before offering any of my own opinions. Mostly I just wanted to open a dialogue with other level-headed individuals.

That being said, I must admit that Taiwan issues strike a particularly passionate chord for me. As mentioned, my family is from the quote-unquote mainland and in fact has been repatriated for about seven years now, in eastern China.

Though I was raised rather apolitically, I can say without a doubt that I was impressed with the notion of Taiwan being a "renegade province" (rhetoric is always a sensitive and tricky issue). I know it's next to impossible for some people to view things with an impartial stance, especially concerning national/cultural pride. I myself subscribe to the belief that extremist ideologies on both sides of the Strait should be avoided. As a Westerner who has come into acquaintance with Taiwan/China issues, you benefit from starting with a clean slate - and being able to form your own opinion of the matter.

This is not to say that I've been "indoctrinated" by the PRC. But surely you must also realize that since you have such close contact with Taiwanese people and Taiwanese thoughts on this matter, you were automatically more liable to accept and endorse one prevailing set of thoughts/ideals in favor of another?

Yeesh, I'm not sure if this makes much sense. And I won't touch upon issues like UN membership because that seems extraneous to this point that I am circuitously trying to make. What I mean is, the reason that Chinese people are so touchy about Taiwan nowadays is not because they lay claim to the fact that the PRC should control Taiwan.

You're completely right - the People's Republic has never held dominion over the island. However, the reason it riles up Chinese is because they view Taiwan not in terms of political systems or governments in power, but as a people who did in fact lose a civil war and resorted to a desperate retreat en masse.

Certainly there are many Taiwanese (especially aborigines) who have been on the island for much longer, during Qing and Japanese rule. But - please correct me if I'm wrong - didn't a massive swell in total population come from the Nationalist retreat to Taiwan in 1949? I don't know exact figures... But I want to say that the majority of these people were KMT supporters or those otherwise frightened by communist rule and potential persecution. These were people from all across "mainland" China who went to Taiwan out of fear, or hope for something better.

Back to what I was saying: I believe most Chinese see this exodus as somewhat analogous to a "falling out" within a family. And now, many years later, it seems like they want to sever ties completely. The Chinese people so often condemn this with brash militaristic shows of power and harsh words, simply because they are afraid of a permanent divide settling in - creating an irreparable rift in the 中华民族. For a people who share a common spoken language (and written, too, up until those pesky simplifications), cultural mores, and millennia-long history, I think it would be more than a bit sad to see 23 million people part ways and reject these roots. Whether they would like to admit it or not, a vast majority of Taiwan's population traces its origins to the mainland at some point - and many even within the past century. It's not a PRC vs. ROC political issue at stake, but a cultural identity. And granted, identity is fluid and Taiwan has definitely taken its own influences and shaped itself into what it is today. But at the bottom there lies an innate Chineseness to its people - one that Taiwan cannot turn its back on.

North and South Korea spring to mind. Now there's a situation that is both more and less intense depending on how you view it. I don't have the knowledge or wherewithal to delve into it but I think it would be a fascinating comparative analysis.

Um. Okay, so that's basically all I wanted to say for now. Sorry about this rambling; not sure if there's much cohesion here but I hope you'll catch my drift. And I'd be very interested to hear any responses at some point, if the mood strikes. Thanks for reading, and keep up with your blog. :); 5:09 PM
Robert said...: Mike,

Never apologize for leaving a long comment here. That's what I live for. Please, don't hesitate to do so again.

Before responding to your comment, I want to stress to you, as I often do in my posts, that I still consider myself a novice when it comes to the whole China-Taiwan situation. Never do I find myself above reproach or questioning. Moreover, I know that my living in Taiwan certainly gives me a different perspective. Some may call it a "slant" or a "bias", but I have more faith in myself than others may (I've never really been accused of this, but I'm sure there are people who think it). All I can say is that (1) I try to be objective because I feel I'd be doing myself a disservice by lying to myself about the reality of the situation, and (2) I hope to study in China some day.

That said, the above posts marks a turning point in my understanding of the conflict, but it does not fully encapsulate my present understanding -- or, um, confusion -- thereof.

You asked:
Certainly there are many Taiwanese (especially aborigines) who have been on the island for much longer, during Qing and Japanese rule. But - please correct me if I'm wrong - didn't a massive swell in total population come from the Nationalist retreat to Taiwan in 1949? I don't know exact figures... But I want to say that the majority of these people were KMT supporters or those otherwise frightened by communist rule and potential persecution. These were people from all across "mainland" China who went to Taiwan out of fear, or hope for something better.

Yes, there was a huge swell over very short period when, if I remember correctly, about 2 million people fled to Taiwan. However, there's one group you left out. You see, there were the aborigines, but there were also the ethnic Chinese who had come over hundreds of years before and associated more with Taiwan and Japan than they did with China. So there were technically three groups: the aborigines, 本省人 ("Taiwanese"), and 外省人 ("Maindlander"). The Mainlanders only make up about ten percent of the population.

You said:
Back to what I was saying: I believe most Chinese see this exodus as somewhat analogous to a "falling out" within a family. And now, many years later, it seems like they want to sever ties completely. The Chinese people so often condemn this with brash militaristic shows of power and harsh words, simply because they are afraid of a permanent divide settling in - creating an irreparable rift in the 中华民族. For a people who share a common spoken language (and written, too, up until those pesky simplifications), cultural mores, and millennia-long history, I think it would be more than a bit sad to see 23 million people part ways and reject these roots. Whether they would like to admit it or not, a vast majority of Taiwan's population traces its origins to the mainland at some point - and many even within the past century. It's not a PRC vs. ROC political issue at stake, but a cultural identity. And granted, identity is fluid and Taiwan has definitely taken its own influences and shaped itself into what it is today. But at the bottom there lies an innate Chineseness to its people - one that Taiwan cannot turn its back on.

Here is my very humble opinion: Nothing at all changes if Taiwan is independent. Taiwanese independence has innumerable political and economic benefits for Taiwan, but it does not in the slightest preclude a severance of cultural or economic ties to China. In many ways, it could facilitate those ties. Just as many people in America maintain the cultural traditions and beliefs of their forefathers, many Taiwanese will certainly continue all the same.

It's my belief that the two countries, or the two parts of the family, are seperate. They have their own economies, governments, peoples, and problems. Yet, they both need each other. Taiwanese independence does not render interaction impossible.
If anything, I think it facilitates it, because it eliminates all of the baggage that is weighing the system down right now. Frankly, I just do not see it as a matter of Taiwan turning her back on her cultural identity.

I really do appreciate your comment, and I hope you will continue. I do this to learn, and I want criticism/questions/opinion.; 7:51 AM
Mike said...: So there were technically three groups: the aborigines, 本省人 ("Taiwanese"), and 外省人 ("Maindlander"). The Mainlanders only make up about ten percent of the population.

Ah, you're right. My understanding of the issue, especially when it comes to demographics, is far from comprehensive.

They have their own economies, governments, peoples, and problems. Yet, they both need each other.

Agreed. I think it's really a fascinating study in the politics of culture. I should note that I would not call myself a proponent of either "re-"unification or independence. I think the situation is far too precarious at this point, with too much risk of inflaming nationalist sentiments. When it comes down to it, humans can be very prideful and this egoism can easily become dangerous.

I'm very curious to see how things unfold in our lifetimes, not to mention this coming March. I hope that government heads will decide to keep peace and prosperity their foremost objective, even if it means delaying immediate results - for either side.; 9:53 AM
Anonymous said...: Ok ok.... so the Han Chinese immigrants from China hundred of years ago burned the villages of the Taiwanese Aborigines (Chinese: 原住民=Taiwan’s Austronesian)- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_aborigines

now claim their "rights" being called "real aborigines"??

maybe I, a native born Han Chinese/Taiwanese whose parents from China over 1949 civil war era need to re-learn my history?

hahaha how about my Atayal buddies and their lady friends from the tribe back in the Army???? who were they then?; 5:40 AM
TwnFlyBoy747 said...: Great blogs like it!!

oh let's not forget the "new immigrants(新移民)" like yourself, foreign guest workers, o also my dear Indonesian wife

the fourth group in your counts?

cheers; 5:50 AM
Robert said...: Anon, if you could point out how your comment responds to my post, I'd appreciate it. I don't know where I mentioned that the benshenren claim to be aborigines.

If you're not responding to me, it'd help if you'd mention who you're responding to.

TwnFlyBoy747, indeed, I guess there is another group. Thanks for pointing that out. It's like when you go to a restaurant and they ask how many and you say "Three" because you came with three friends. Sometimes you just forget to count yourself.; 6:54 AM
twnFlyBoy747 said...: Robert,

I was anon, my apology, I've missed a comma in between the aborigines and benshenren in one of your response to Mike.... That's fatigue did to me especially when I'm in a time zone 15 hours behind

I have great admirations for people who root for open society. But you see we still have a long long way to go here in Taiwan and across the strait in "Red China". One observation 99% of my aboriginal friends might be less wealthy but they are certainly more open-hearted

I blame Han ren politicians(漢人政客) Pan-Green/blue alike, also "there in Red China", who have been playing peoples' emotions for their political gains. ...SADNESS; 8:04 AM
Robert said...: No problem, TwnFlyBoy747.

It's not just Taiwan and China, it's all of Asia, the East, the West, the entire world where we've got a lot of progress yet to make.

By the way, were Anon in another comment on another post?; 7:31 PM
Anonymous said...: Mainland is what I use and always will until the people of Taiwan show that they they are any different. My experience is that many here are even more "chinese" than the mainlanders. In a city like Shanghai for example, people are modernizing, not only with obvious infrastructure but in their attitudes and actions. Where I live in Taiwan, people are much much more 'chinese traditional' than the mainlanders.

I had high hopes when moving here, but I have found nothing but the same lies, cheating, stealing, and bs 'face' routine that I got in the mainland. Why is it impossible to lose face for lying or stealing? The Chinese businessmen in Taiwan are exactly the same as the Chinese businessmen on the mainland. Same people, different island.

Heck they even have the same commy 'come to your door at 2:00 am" and harrass you routine here!

Same old whore, new dress.; 7:55 PM
Robert said...: You bring up a good point, Anon. I've always thought it funny when I hear Chinese citizens talking about their millennia of culture, when in fact they more or less disassembled their culture in China, while the KMT brought what was left to Taiwan.

Where do you live in Taiwan?

I've never had any commie drop-ins like the ones you reference.; 11:10 PM
Anonymous said...: I am in Jaiyi. I percieve this place to be more Chinese, than China.

Even the language here, the traditional characters, a prime example of how Taiwan has inherited the Chinese culture before it was destroyed. There are also some great martial lineages that are alive and well today because great masters left China to keep these arts alive.

Taiwan doesn't appear to be interested in controling or destroying the traditional ways. I realize many have a hard time admitting or acknowledging Taiwan's roots and influences from China, but it really is all around us.

I was out with some Taiwanese a few weeks ago and someone said they went to China. So I said "where in China?". The guy sitting next to me, who was leaving the next day to report for his army training gave me a nasty look and said "woops!" and the room went silent. I didn't understand at first, and wondered why the room suddenly turned cold. I then realized the problem, and repeated again "where" "where" "where in China did you go?". They thought I had said "we're in China"! I never did fully recover from that misunderstanding!; 6:55 AM
暗生番 said...: Sorry. I meant to comment here:

Hi everybody, check these out if you haven't already: